Flaps or No Flaps?

[Jim Quinn]

Was recently going thru various reports and articles on the MM web site. Came across a comment from Ben F regarding use of flaps for both takeoff and landing. Ben suggested that flaps on takeoff could be hazardous to your health and that the Mite might actually be a better airplane if the flaps were removed.

I would like to hear comments and opinions from others as to their experiences using and not using flaps for both flight operations, i.e. takeoffs and landings, and the benefits/results of deleting the flaps from the design. I am assuming that if the flaps were removed, the wing skin would be extended to replace the wing area previously occupied by the flaps.

This modification would only be applicable to a Mite in the experimental class

[Larry]

I'll get the conversation started by saying that I do not agree that it would be a better plane if the flaps were removed. I find it to be much nicer landing with flaps than without. We can discuss reasons for that answer in future replys.
I agree that takeoffs with flaps isn't great, but I don't find it to be inherently dangerous.
It seems to me that removing them because you might forget to retract them is counter productive. The checklist should remind you to retract them if you have not already done so prior to run-up.
Larry Minch N4187

[Lew Moon]

I aggree with Larry. My checklist is a placard on the panel. I did forget and did Lewtake off with the flaps down. I had been warned about that. It did extend the take off and helped me to remember in the future,

[Jim Quinn]

So how does the Mite do with a "no flaps" landing? How much airspeed is required to maintain a desired sink rate compared to landing with flaps?

[Keith Mackey]

Remember that the flaps work with the trim control. As the airplane slows and is trimmed for the slower speed, the flaps extend. If the flaps were disabled, the airplane might not trim well at slower speeds or have sufficient trim range for landing.

First a caveat. I've been doing this flying thing for a while now and may have some different ideas than current thinking that does not consider a power failure on an approach likely.

I don't slow the airplane to approach speed in landing configuration three miles out and drag it in with power like a multi engine jet (or the way a lot of new pilots are trained to do) because with an engine failure on approach, there would not be sufficient potential energy stored in the speed and altitude energy banks to reach the runway or have much of a selection of emergency landing areas. The airplane would be at low altitude, unable to glide to the runway without power. In this situation, you're in deep kaka because you depended on power to reach the runway and suddenly, at very low altitude, there is none.

Instead, I make sure the coarse trim knob is pointed to the rear, close the throttle to check the wig wag, horn and light functions, then extend the gear, do a thumb check and observed all the warnings are off. I don't leave pattern altitude until reaching a point where I can glide to the runway without power.

I keep the speed up to 100 - 109 mph (max gear speed) as long as possible to keep as much speed energy (that can be converted to altitude for a longer glide) as long as possible. With landing on the runway assured, bleed off the extra speed, noting that at 85, the trim can be used to extend the flaps. If too high, the Mite slips very well. Target threshold power off speed is about 60 - 65. Touchdown is 53 to about 56 depending on the flap position. If the airplane is in trim, the flaps extend as the airspeed slows by design to compensate for the decreased speed. The secret is trimming for the speed. Sometimes the flaps are up, sometimes down depending on speed. Just do whatever it takes to reach the runway, power off, in trim and land in the touchdown zone.

We have a long runway at home base, but using only about 1,500' of it helps keep in practice for emergency dead stick landings. Unfortunately, the runway is crosswind to prevailing winds most of the year so it is not unusual to encounter a 18 - 20 knot crosswind. When landing with a strong crosswind, I'll not use the flaps and keep just a little more speed until in ground effect, correct for the wind by dropping a wing and just land on the upwind wheel first. No big deal in the Mite.

Just try to keep the airplane in trim. Sometimes the flaps will be down, other times not. It really makes little to no difference. They serve their purpose by being just another tool to help land at the desired point on speed.

As far as takeoffs, in my airplane, I set the trim at the point just before the flaps would start down. Other airplanes may be different depending on c/g. This is just about the right trim for the initial climb. I've tried takeoffs with the flaps down, but could find no advantage in doing so. I didn't find the performance much different, I just had to crank them up to be in trim for initial climb.

Bottom line: In my opinion, the flaps are not a big deal one way or the other. Al Mooney was a lot smarter than probably any of us, and if he figured they were needed, that works for me. Don't try to remove them. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Lew Moon]

Great response by Keith. He mentioned slips. I aways wondered about slipping a mite. As a Champ driver I used slips a lot,
Lew